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Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Dinner on Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:19 pm

Yo,

- removing the maximum senzu cap, or put the maximum amount higher, near the 40.
- Make it able to have more than 1 saenzu in your item list. having to go back to dr. briefs is a bitch to do.
- Make the spawns 100% non pk zone ( the edges are still not non pk. )
- add a take away recruiter verb for guilds.
- add a give leader verb for guilds.
- add a guild ranking system, where you can rank your guild members.
- add a scoreboard, or readd it actually.
- Give the android spawn low weights without gravity.
- make sh4,ssj4 hair overlay icons optional, set by default on active.

Thats it for now .
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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Krasuar on Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:48 pm

- removing the maximum senzu cap, or put the maximum amount higher, near the 40.
Probably capped to keep you bastards from abusing them anyway. Razz I say cap is fine honestly. I don't remember Goku running around with 40 senzu beans popping them like candy.

- Make it able to have more than 1 saenzu in your item list. having to go back to dr. briefs is a bitch to do. How can there be a cap on Senzu if you can only hold one? Unless you mean stimulant pills. If so it's a coding issue that keeps you from abusing multiple pills/avoiding deaths. That's the reason for one only in inventory at a time.

- add a take away recruiter verb for guilds.
- add a give leader verb for guilds.
Indeed we should on both accounts.

- add a guild ranking system, where you can rank your guild members.
*cough*Titles can do that*cough*

- add a scoreboard, or readd it actually.
Had one before, got taken off for a reason I can't honestly remember at the moment.

- Give the android spawn low weights without gravity.
I likes it.

- make sh4,ssj4 hair overlay icons optional, set by default on active.
Ssj forms didn't really have a choice on their hairstyles, but sh4's going auto crazy red is a bit weird. Maybe a custom color selection for humans on their sh4?


Last edited by Krasuar on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Dinner on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:29 pm

for the guild member ranking i meant something for in GOOC, you wouldn't want to show in wsay who is higher ranked in your guild. so it should be like a title for in GOOC.

And yeah i meant stim pills =o.

senzu cap is currently on 26, if it is capped because "in the anime/manga ..." then you shouldn't be able to have more than 2 maybe even 3.

Also another thing.

We really could use some better saga items. the current saga items kinda suck. if it wasn't for the huge amounts of zenni some give when you sell them they would be useless.

Also items like the Zsword should be sellable.

Guild item refunding !
you know, ever had a guild item that had a glitch in it ? or a guild item that just didn't look good, but you already spend 15k on it, so it would be a waste to just destroy the item ?
Here is your solution!
Give them to a salesmen who would give you 7.5k back for the items.
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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  KeiroShiba on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:02 pm

I believe the senzu cap is 26, and thats fine, like kras said they get abused anyways and we need to work on that.

We need to keep recruiters because leaders have more abilities but we do need to ad a give leader verb aslo.

I had the idea to add a guild ranking system, but whos to say someone is gonna want to have ranks in there guild? and in that retrospect.. whos gonna be the one to decide how many a guild should have? My solution to this is, make it optional in the leader guild tab to give ranks, let them decide how many they want, my suggestion is limiting it 1-5, you being able to pick how many ranks you have of course being the leader,

The scoreboard was removed because it caused alot of uneeded lag.. but I was thinking we maybe able to incorporate a scoreboard in the "who" verb.. it basically tells levels and guilds, we could have it tell everything.. I doubt it would cause more lag than a just using "who" but with the scoreboard brings more competition to be the best, which isnt a bad thing but I would like the playerbase to be a little more friendly and not so aggressive to where it scared away newer players

As for androids.. well I wanna add ways to train without having to goto king kias right away, planet vegeta will have the same gravity as king kias and better gravity in weight training, so this may be of value to androids and everyone else for that matter

And as far as the hair situation.. the other races have it where if your bald you dont have hair when you trans.. I think it applies for saiya-jins as well.. so not sure what you were goin for with that but yes human hair shouldnt appear even if you are bugged..

If anyone has training ides Myself and the rest of the staff would be interested to hear your ideas and they will be considered as long as they are serious. Thank you

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  James on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:49 pm

- removing the maximum senzu cap, or put the maximum amount higher, near the 40.

I would, but I added it for a reason.

- Make it able to have more than 1 saenzu in your item list. having to go back to dr. briefs is a bitch to do.

This would work just as well with the first comment. Smile

- Make the spawns 100% non pk zone ( the edges are still not non pk. )

How can they kill you? Like if they are outside or if an explosion hits you?

- add a take away recruiter verb for guilds.

I see that being doable.

- add a give leader verb for guilds.

I've already said there will be only one leader per guild... that's just how I want it. Less headache for everyone.

- add a guild ranking system, where you can rank your guild members.

I actually started working on this with the new guild system that never got put in.

- add a scoreboard, or readd it actually.

Way too CPU intensive.

- Give the android spawn low weights without gravity.

Androids definitely need a better way of training, however, I don't think this would work. I have a couple of ideas...

- make sh4,ssj4 hair overlay icons optional, set by default on active.

I believe I also wouldn't like this idea...

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  James on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:05 pm

And yeah i meant stim pills =o.

Stim pills should be stackable.

We really could use some better saga items. the current saga items kinda suck. if it wasn't for the huge amounts of zenni some give when you sell them they would be useless.


Agreed. I will work on this too.

Also items like the Zsword should be sellable.

The Z-Sword is a legendary object... and you get it for free. I'm not sure if I like that idea, what does everyone else think?

Guild item refunding !
you know, ever had a guild item that had a glitch in it ? or a guild item that just didn't look good, but you already spend 15k on it, so it would be a waste to just destroy the item ?
Here is your solution!
Give them to a salesmen who would give you 7.5k back for the items

Good idea.

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Dinner on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:07 pm

About the " give leader verb".
i for one love to make several charecters, i don't want to abuse the create guild bug too much because .. well it's a bug and it shows people how to use it when i use it.
So when i have a give leader verb i can just create a guild on one key and use that key to promote all my other characters. because, as i am sure lots of you know, having to relog to create a guild item.. it sucks. specially if you're training or anything.
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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Krasuar on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:13 pm

Z sword being sell-able is bad. You should be able to use it for some training purpose before it breaks under your uber strength and gain "something" for it. Don't have a clue what yet though.

If you try and buy a second pill while already having one you get this message, You already have one, sorry!

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  KeiroShiba on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:15 pm

Well in cases like that a moderator will grant you leadership of your guild again. Its still having 1 leader :p just making us do a lil work.. and I thought my ideas were good lol no one seemed to comment on them but ohwells.. dinner these sigs are gigundus.. I hope they still look good when they are shrunkin

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Neblim on Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:32 am

I don't really play this game much, let alone log on, but I think I should mention why I don't. Don't shoot me for mentioning these things because I'm just trying to help. If my suggestions are rejected, that is ok with me. However, please take the time to read them and respond intelligently.

Training: Ok, I think I got use to playing this game and getting to level 300 in a day. That's fine and dandy and all, but I want to complain about how it is done. Maybe I am not macro happy as much as the community, but I sure would like a new primary way to train. NPCs in most RPGs seem to be the basis for this, and I have to say they made a wise decision. The best way to describe how every Byond DBZ game handles this is eliminate/butcher a NPC battle system as the primary method, and butcher how an RPG is played with giving them a macro for all they're training needs. If you beat a bag/tree or walk around endlessly mindlessly all the time, you tend to wonder why you would do it in the first place and waste your time. Maybe if I fought a NPC to gain experience in something like a turn based combat, I would not think so much about this. You might also be able to make players more friendly if they actually worked together on a more equal playing field by using this combat system for partying.

If you dissect a simple turn based RPG (such as the old Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior), you can clearly see it's not difficult to create a basic turn based battle system. I would not suggest real time because this would cause more lag than necessary and would make it hard for NPCs to act intelligently and fluently visually. It would also be boring to just one-hit them and gain experience without any challenge. [see statistics suggestion]

Here's a more visual view:



Graphics don't have to be limited with color palette like this, this is just an example of a basic battle system. Hell, commands don't even have to be graphical. Just use the Byond's default user input select options function.

On the programmer level, these things would be simple to achieve, if kept to a basic form. It can be improved later if it is desired to be fancier. That leaves only two problems to face. Graphics for the NPCs and ideas for the NPC design.

Ok, this is DBZ, so where do we find tons of NPCs to fit this system so it doesn't get boring? How about create new alien monsters with our imagination? We don't have to use medieval stuff like ogres, pirates, mages, etcetera, necessarily. We can use actual DBZ fighters as bosses if we wanted a more interesting way of handling a story.

Now who's going to do the graphics? Well I'm volunteering.

Make it into a battle simulator if you don't want NPC battle spawns on the world map. If I had the choice of training real fast, mindlessly, by lifting a weight/walking, over the choice of some battle simulator that slowed down training, but enhanced some interaction, I would pick the Battle system. Weights/weight walking don't have to be removed or anything, just make the battle system for certain training times.

Statistics: Despite hogging unnecessary memory with such long integer values, it's impossible to balance with the current setup. If you don't lower the stat values to something more realistic to actually calculate (ie: under 1000), you'll have 2 ways to predict a PvP/NPC fight. A) If player has higher stats, more than likely they will win. This provokes endless bullying against newer players. B) If the players are the same race and level, they will clash evenly. The player who knows how to fight will win.

If smaller values were used, the higher the level of a player won't be so extreme. Players are giving a more even playing field, despite the level gap. It's simple, for every level, add something like rand(1 to 5) for each stat.

What about the huge Powerlevel DBZ characters always seem to exaggerate? Well if you pay attention to DBZ, after 1 million or so, this number is never really mentioned afterwards, but vaguely claimed as a strong power through sensing. You can always make current stats add up to an overall number without affecting the player's actual stats and exaggerate this through the sense verb.

ie:
Code:
var powerlevel = (hp + att + def + ki)*1000

Now you will only have 1 semi long variable to worry about.

Equipment: Unless the statistical values are lowered, clothing will never be useful unless they are in the form of multipliers. But think to yourself, if they had multipliers, how does that make sense? Weapons/armor can grow like a person? Even if they had an insane fixed stat increase, it still would not make much more sense, let alone add to the confusion to the already high statistic values. My suggestion for this is to refer to my statistics suggestion and allow for actual useful fixed increments, such as +15, +25, +40, and not something like +1000. You can't calculate integer uses when they are too bloated.

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Krasuar on Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:57 am

Did you never party or fight the sagas for exp? Kinda throws your whole first half of the post out the window there. I get where you are coming from, more to fight than just the one sagas out.

As to the stats being so high at higher levels? You get a sense of accomplishment for being that high and your stats reflect that. If the numbers are to low it jsut seems bland. Hey look at me! I have 10 attack! Over, Look at me! I have 10,000,000 attack. Although through formulas both can do the same thing, which seems more impressive to see? Not to mention if stat gains are redone and drastically lowered we have to re-balance all the races all over again. Not an easy task, but by no means impossible. Hell to be honest I love to do shit with numbers anyway so I'd enjoy it just for the having something to do. Arguably, balancing the races would be so much easier to do with lower numbers to work with.

Turn based combat to represent DBZ? Nah.. just doesn't have that fast paced DBZ like feel to it.

I agree on the clothing deal somewhat and we are planning to try and redo the stat boost on them to not be uh... pointless. Although not sure how going super saiyan makes your shirt stronger either. I'll see about a new method for them as well and run it by James. Maybe damage reduction without altering defense, or damage output without altering attack.

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Neblim on Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:33 pm

Did you never party or fight the sagas for exp? Kinda throws your whole first half of the post out the window there. I get where you are coming from, more to fight than just the one sagas out.

Yes, I have played them. Sagas don't stay in one spot for someone to level without having a higher level be as the bait, and all those party members within 50 levels gain experience without lifting a finger. If there was something like a simulator to reproduce Saga NPCs or different NPCs for the sake of training on their level, then this would be a practical way to train.

What throws my whole first half of my post out the window? Could you please elaborate a little?

As to the stats being so high at higher levels? You get a sense of accomplishment for being that high and your stats reflect that. If the numbers are to low it jsut seems bland. Hey look at me! I have 10 attack! Over, Look at me! I have 10,000,000 attack. Although through formulas both can do the same thing, which seems more impressive to see? Not to mention if stat gains are redone and drastically lowered we have to re-balance all the races all over again. Not an easy task, but by no means impossible. Hell to be honest I love to do shit with numbers anyway so I'd enjoy it just for the having something to do. Arguably, balancing the races would be so much easier to do with lower numbers to work with.

Accomplishment? I was referring to game play. Are you saying you would rather play with stats you can't balance, sacrificing any realistic calculation through any formula, to just appear good? Stats increment more as they get higher. This is where the real problem lies in high numbers...as the levels get higher, the more dramatic they become. With smaller integers, this is reduced a lot.

Also, with high levels such as +300, you'll get over +1000 stats with no problem. Isn't +1000 enough, or is that just not a fancy number? Last time I checked, I have never played any professional game with anything higher than +1000 stats, with the exception of hp being no higher than +10000 at extremely high levels. Why? It's bad practice when it comes to any programming language, since the higher the number, the more memory it takes up. That's more memory to worry about in the event of a leak. Byond may handle memory allocation automatically, but that doesn't give the programmers the excuse to take up more memory than it should. Byond is not perfect, it leaks memory often, and higher variable values like this makes the leak worse, since this is a sign of deallocating memory that's already deallocated. You might want to think why the server crashes often without rebooting, rather than ignore the problem. And it's something to think about next time you edit your Admin account to literally 1000000000000000000000000000000000 stats. It's just asking for trouble in deallocation.

If you are familiar with other higher level programming languages, you'll understand where I am coming from. If not, then may I suggest you not rely on Byond's manuals and go read about how other programming languages handle allocating and deallocating memory so you can.

Turn based combat to represent DBZ? Nah.. just doesn't have that fast paced DBZ like feel to it.

I only suggested turn based because it's more practical on a network game. Real time produces lag at unwanted times with slower servers. Real time isn't something to rule out, however, turn based will save players and hosts a headache during lag spikes.

I agree on the clothing deal somewhat and we are planning to try and redo the stat boost on them to not be uh... pointless. Although not sure how going super saiyan makes your shirt stronger either. I'll see about a new method for them as well and run it by James. Maybe damage reduction without altering defense, or damage output without altering attack.

Damage reduction is the only way to make this efficient on the current high stat value setup.

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  James on Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:37 pm

Neblim wrote:I don't really play this game much, let alone log on, but I think I should mention why I don't. Don't shoot me for mentioning these things because I'm just trying to help. If my suggestions are rejected, that is ok with me. However, please take the time to read them and respond intelligently.

Training: Ok, I think I got use to playing this game and getting to level 300 in a day. That's fine and dandy and all, but I want to complain about how it is done. Maybe I am not macro happy as much as the community, but I sure would like a new primary way to train. NPCs in most RPGs seem to be the basis for this, and I have to say they made a wise decision. The best way to describe how every Byond DBZ game handles this is eliminate/butcher a NPC battle system as the primary method, and butcher how an RPG is played with giving them a macro for all they're training needs. If you beat a bag/tree or walk around endlessly mindlessly all the time, you tend to wonder why you would do it in the first place and waste your time. Maybe if I fought a NPC to gain experience in something like a turn based combat, I would not think so much about this. You might also be able to make players more friendly if they actually worked together on a more equal playing field by using this combat system for partying.

If you dissect a simple turn based RPG (such as the old Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior), you can clearly see it's not difficult to create a basic turn based battle system. I would not suggest real time because this would cause more lag than necessary and would make it hard for NPCs to act intelligently and fluently visually. It would also be boring to just one-hit them and gain experience without any challenge. [see statistics suggestion]

Here's a more visual view:

Graphics don't have to be limited with color palette like this, this is just an example of a basic battle system. Hell, commands don't even have to be graphical. Just use the Byond's default user input select options function.

On the programmer level, these things would be simple to achieve, if kept to a basic form. It can be improved later if it is desired to be fancier. That leaves only two problems to face. Graphics for the NPCs and ideas for the NPC design.

Ok, this is DBZ, so where do we find tons of NPCs to fit this system so it doesn't get boring? How about create new alien monsters with our imagination? We don't have to use medieval stuff like ogres, pirates, mages, etcetera, necessarily. We can use actual DBZ fighters as bosses if we wanted a more interesting way of handling a story.


These all seem like really great ideas, but it does actually go away from why I originally created the game. Indeed, I wanted the game to be an RPG-based DBZ game. I also wanted live-action gameplay. The NPC interaction is definitely something clan is (and always has) lacked. NPCs are there, but they rarely serve a purpose outside of getting techniques. I believe we have passed ideas around about the possibilities of quests from NPCs, but this is something that would be a long time into the future.
[quote="Neblim"]
Now who's going to do the graphics? Well I'm volunteering.
[/qoute]

I'd love to see an example of your work. I'm sure Altima would love someone to have work with him too.

[quote="Neblim"]
Statistics: Despite hogging unnecessary memory with such long integer values, it's impossible to balance with the current setup. If you don't lower the stat values to something more realistic to actually calculate (ie: under 1000), you'll have 2 ways to predict a PvP/NPC fight. A) If player has higher stats, more than likely they will win. This provokes endless bullying against newer players. B) If the players are the same race and level, they will clash evenly. The player who knows how to fight will win.

If smaller values were used, the higher the level of a player won't be so extreme. Players are giving a more even playing field, despite the level gap. It's simple, for every level, add something like rand(1 to 5) for each stat.

What about the huge Powerlevel DBZ characters always seem to exaggerate? Well if you pay attention to DBZ, after 1 million or so, this number is never really mentioned afterwards, but vaguely claimed as a strong power through sensing. You can always make current stats add up to an overall number without affecting the player's actual stats and exaggerate this through the sense verb.

ie:
Code:
var powerlevel = (hp + att + def + ki)*1000

Now you will only have 1 semi long variable to worry about.
[/qoute]

I did realize that balancing with such large numbers would be difficult. However, large numbers are a part of the series. I took actual numbers from the series and tried to make the game and transformations fit accordingly. Akira Toriyama did release an official book with FAQs about powerlevels during sagas. Clan is related directly to that work. This is a fangame, and my number one priority is keeping the game like the anime.

Also, I've never worried about memory usage with Clan. It's obvious to tell this when I started allowing custom icons to be loaded into the game Razz Right now, the game is using about 27 megabytes out of 4,000. I'm not worried. =)

As always, suggestions are always welcome. They can never harm anything, oftentimes I find ideas I like out of what people have told me.

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Krasuar on Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:49 pm

Yes, I have played them. Sagas don't stay in one spot for someone to level without having a higher level be as the bait, and all those party members within 50 levels gain experience without lifting a finger. If there was something like a simulator to reproduce Saga NPCs or different NPCs for the sake of training on their level, then this would be a practical way to train.

So you're saying you want them to just stand still for you for free exp instead of doing them the right way (Which is not the current way people do them)? I do like the idea of a simulator of some sorts to re-fight this or that.

Last time I checked, I have never played any professional game with anything higher than +1000 stats, with the exception of hp being no higher than +10000 at extremely high levels.

Two words. Nippon Ichi. Company that made the Disgaea series. Level caps at 9999, stats at 40 million. Turn based strategy tactics game. Granted you don't need anywhere near that to 1 shot the pre-programmed enemies in the game, more for a fun value of seeing what your hard work on your characters can do.

I only suggested turn based because it's more practical on a network game. Real time produces lag at unwanted times with slower servers. Real time isn't something to rule out, however, turn based will save players and hosts a headache during lag spikes.

I've played several turn based games on byond and experienced lag spikes far worse than anything I've ever seen on Clan. At least in Clan if it spikes, everyone spikes so it's not like Player A is killing Player B while Player B is frozen in place for 20 seconds.

But overall I think you're just obsessed with the memory aspect of it all from what I've seen you talk about in game. Ignore the memory, Clan's got plenty, and go for the fun.

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Neblim on Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:21 pm

@James

I'd love to see an example of your work. I'm sure Altima would love someone to have work with him too.

I sent you a PM last night concerning this. Smile As for Altima, I already have him as a contact on MSN.

These all seem like really great ideas, but it does actually go away from why I originally created the game. Indeed, I wanted the game to be an RPG-based DBZ game. I also wanted live-action gameplay. The NPC interaction is definitely something clan is (and always has) lacked. NPCs are there, but they rarely serve a purpose outside of getting techniques. I believe we have passed ideas around about the possibilities of quests from NPCs, but this is something that would be a long time into the future.

Then have you ever considered the possibility of a side scrolling RPG based DBZ game? Smile Chibi sprites are not really meant for detailed animation opposed to a one direction sprite where an artist can focus more into animation and detail in a unique stance. An example of what I'm talking about would be some unshaded custom sprites I made recently:

It's not only more detailed, but faster to make since there is only 1 actual direction to draw than 3 for chibi sprites...or 5 for those pesky isometric sprites. Wink

As always, suggestions are always welcome. They can never harm anything, oftentimes I find ideas I like out of what people have told me.

I hope I been useful then. Smile I figured constructive criticism from another programmer's perspective for a change would be relieving.

I had a longer reply (actually I had to rewrite it...), but for some reason these boards keep screwing up my posts. Neutral

@Krasuar

Two words. Nippon Ichi. Company that made the Disgaea series. Level caps at 9999, stats at 40 million. Turn based strategy tactics game. Granted you don't need anywhere near that to 1 shot the pre-programmed enemies in the game, more for a fun value of seeing what your hard work on your characters can do.

You also have to note that they are using a higher programming language (such as c++) to allocate and deallocate the memory properly at the right times. It is also not a mmorpg being ran 24/7 on a server to wait for a leak. Razz

So you're saying you want them to just stand still for you for free exp instead of doing them the right way (Which is not the current way people do them)?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'll try to iterate anyway.

Why do players that stand like dolls without actually helping fight in the party gain experience? Why not make party's disallow (through hardcode) people from joining if they are not within 50 levels of the leader? It would certainly keep the confusion down for newer players when they don't gain any experience when they are in a party. It also would make it flexible enough for all party members to gain experience and actually be able to collaboratively fight sagas without worrying "who's going to kill it".

Being bate for the saga is another issue, since it just attacks the first person (unrealistic) it sees. But I think that's enough suggestions from me. Razz

But overall I think you're just obsessed with the memory aspect of it all from what I've seen you talk about in game. Ignore the memory, Clan's got plenty, and go for the fun.

Any good programmer would slap you for being ignorant with it. Razz If you don't like constructive criticism, then I'm sorry. Again, Byond isn't perfect, so I was just trying to help avoid massive leaks by making things a bit more simple. But I will drop this if it annoys you that much.


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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  James on Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:43 pm

The AI works very well, it just never goes about re-targeting. Another thing I plan on programming is an "ag meter", something like standard MMORPGs use. It would be easy, as well as effective.

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  Neblim on Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:51 pm

Yea, it's definitely not a stupid AI. I can never kill my custom saga because it just pops up and kills me from behind. Laughing It could use some re-targeting like you said though.

(Did you get my PM?)

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

Post  jakez on Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:33 pm

i believe there should be events and such like maybe hide and seek, maybe dragon ball z knowledge err..... maybe even like 3 custom sagas at once for an event or a uber saga EG legendary nappa (for anyone who doesnt remember him it was the saga that one hit seesh and it was very strong)


also i think there should be more weights because ki room does get boring, maybe even a higher lvl grass training place (500+) grass training place up to like 550 and then weights then ki room then other things

i think sayains need to be betterr XD

jakez

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Join date : 2008-09-01

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Re: Ideas, you know what you want, just say it.

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